It's time to tackle a topic that has been pissing me off for years: So-called "Open Marriages."
And let's not confuse "Open Marriage" with Polyamory.
Polyamory is a stable relationship between more than two people, ie. a man and two women, or any "threesome", or the whole Mormon seven-wives ideal.
Please note that I used the word stable.
An "Open Marriage" is when two people want to get married but leave their options open to the possibility of having sex with people outside the relationship.
What an utter, total crock.
I've got to ask: Why bother getting married? Why don't these couples just stay unconfirmed and remain "open?" Why go through all the bother of a ceremony? After all, isn't marriage supposed to be a closed relationship?
Oh heck no, not in today's progressive age of cooler-than-thou flexibility and you're-just-not-hip-enough-to-get-it social trends.
See, these people think they've reinvented marriage. They must. Otherwise, they'd just stay roommates or common-law or whatever the relationship was before they Tied The Knot-- a slipknot that can be easily undone, by the way, to accommodate other people walking in an out. Hell, why not just call it the New and Improved Revolving Door Marriage?
Now I've seen these relationships in action and I have to admit, for the most part, they seem to work. The people in them are, by and large, happy. Or at least they think they are.
But are they healthy? Mentally and emotionally? Now there's a question.
Closed marriages (for us boring run-of-the-mill people) take work. They take effort. And I'll grant you that not many of them succeed (what's the statistic these days, fifty percent of all marriages fail within the first year? Right.) But at least the people in them are invested in each other. They made a commitment that's supposed to last, even if in reality it doesn't.
Now, open marriages don't have that commitment. How could they? There's no pressure whatsoever on anyone. Hey, sure, they've got the same piece of paper that says they're a couple, but when the going gets rough they can go shack up with their boy/girlfriend until they feel like coming home again.
"But the relationships last longer because they're more flexible," argue the New Age Marrieds.
Of course they would. There's zero pressure in them. And if they do get pressured, they can always get a new boy/girlfriend to go have sex with to ease the tension.
Open marriages are an insult to the institution of marriage. They're a slap in the face to those of us that strove, cried, and actually worked things out because to us, there was no option of just saying "Whatever!", throwing up our hands and finding solace in our latest Flavor Of The Month.
There are two huge factors that I'm noticing in the open relationships I've observed: Laziness and Fear. Laziness as in one partner not wanting to bother with the demands of the other partner; they just wave the partner off to go satisfy themselves with whomever so they can get back to doing what they were doing.
Fear of being abandoned if they make any demands whatsoever or impose any boundaries on their significant other. Folks, that ain't healthy. In a relationship, you should feel SAFE, not passive. You should feel you have the right to say "unacceptable!"
(Note: Having "Veto Power" over your spouse's choice of girl/boyfriend of the week isn't safety. It's compromise in the face of being alone and having to find a more stable spouse.)
"You crabby old bastard, Agent M," the new age relationship fluff bunnies say. "You just don't like it because it's new/you didn't do it/you're unhappy/ it's not something you would do!"
No, kids-- I don't like it because it's unhealthy. It enforces no boundaries, does not promote responsibility or maturity, and pretty much lets you get away scot free with things no real marriage could possibly withstand. Grow up.
Hey, this is only an opinion. But at least it's MINE.
Posted by Agent M at August 13, 2002 10:19 AMGo not to Quixote for wisdom, for he will say both "yay" and "nay".
I think it is possible to have an open relationship. After all it's just sex. Our society has huge hang-ups about sex, but is there any real reason why we couldn't treat it like other activities? I'm not helping someone commit adultery if we go to the movies for example. The problem is it requires both partners to be exceptionally mature and well-adjusted. Such people are equally likely to choose strict monogamy unless they have a compelling reason.
Long periods apart or wildly divergent sexual appetites are two possible examples.
Now how many people do you know who are that mature - are they the same people who are in open relationships? For the record, I think that such rare couples exist, but by their (mature and well-adjusted) nature, you're never going to know they're in an open relationship because they'll be very very discreet about it.
In short, it is possible to have a healthy, well thought out, open relationship. I also think it's as rare as hen's teeth. For the record, I have never been, nor will I ever be, that mature. I would demand monogamy in any long-term relationship I was in, simply because anything else would be a severe blow to my self-esteem.
How about the immature couples? They're the ones you see bragging about it, and I agree that it's unhealthy. In this case, you comments on FEAR are spot on (and I'd guess this is 90 percent of the cases, with LAZINESS taking up the slack). Most of the times when I've seen this sort of relationship in action, one person is definitely afraid that the other will pull out if not given their way. Extending the topic a bit, I've seen this thing more often in other aspects of an otherwise monogamous relationship. One guy I used to know said "We always agree with each other and act as a unit". I submit that any couple that is in total agreement all the time is a couple where one person makes all the decisions and the other always says "yes dear".
If your partner says "I want to sleep with so-and-so, can I do it?", the first response should always be "What do you think is lacking in our relationship that you need to see that person?" rather than "I guess so".
Well, I've probably pissed a few people off by now, so my work here is done.
One final thought though - just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean I'll do anything to stop you - I think people should be free to be damn fools if they want. Just don't expect me to pretend it's a good idea.
Posted by: Quixote on August 13, 2002 08:07 PMIt's interesting that you expressed a distinction between polyamory and "open marriage". Depending how you look at it, polyamory _is_ an open marriage.
But whichever it be, polyamory or open marriage, I agree that the home relationship must come first. If there are problems at home then bringing other people into the relationship is just going to make it that much more complex.
In my opinion, and in my experience, any open relationship, marriage or otherwise, requires far more work than any closed one (ie. monogamous) if it's going to work for all involved.
But I'm amazed to read _you_ M, of all people, type the words "insult to the institution of marriage". Sorry, but it just seems rather... bizarre.
Marriage, in my opinion, isn't an institution. It's a relationship. Any time you slap an institution label on it you're enforcing external rules that may or may be agreable to the people involved.
The "institution" of marriage certainly doesn't agree with our (my wife and I) definition of marriage. Our definition of marriage would more likely fit your definition of an "open" marriage.
But it's all about care, consideration, and commitment.
Yes, people in open relationships _do_ throw up their hands, say "I give up", and go after some other lover for a while. They're assholes, in my opinion, and don't deserve any kind of relationship at all.
There are also those in supposedly monogamous relationships who do the exact same thing, except a little less openly, and who's kidding who?
There are also those in a monogamous relationship who throw up their hands, give up, and get a divorce so they can move on to another lover in a more societally acceptable way.
All three are examples of reprehensible behaviour, in my opinion.
Open marriage or closed, the rules are the same: Love, honor, and respect your partners.
Posted by: Rook on August 15, 2002 02:10 PMThese are both thoughtful and incisive comments-- my god, people actually READ and comprehend my rants. God bless you.
To answer Rook-- Yeah, I typed "institution of marriage." Why? Because, after five years of dating and eight years of marriage, I'm making it work-- and it's not even very hard work, just regular maintenance and attention to detail.
Listen to me, like my wife is a car or something. But it's true-- my relationship had all the very very difficult, fragile and "insurmountable" circumstances before I got married. (And I would hope that other couples get those things out of the way before the "I-do's" as well.)
Now that I'm "in the Institution," as it were, I tend to view it as sacrosanct. Rather than viewing the word institution in its fearful, life-choking individuality-erasing aspects, I choose to view it in its paragon of society aspect, its unassailable fortress aspects, its reassuring model aspect.
You do make a good point, Rook: Marriages, open or closed or polyamorous, are meant to succeed or doomed to fail based on the people in them. Immature people can't handle marriage, period.
(And yes, I just heard a story about a couple who is planning an open marriage; he moved their house and belongings while she went off camping with her boyfriend. My sweet jumping GOD.)
Thank you for bringing your expert and experienced opinion to this forum-- I hope to get more discussions like this.
Well, at least every time I do a SERIOUS topic. Next week? Froot Loops.
--M
Posted by: Agent M on August 16, 2002 09:49 AMFifty percent of marriages end in divorce. The other fifty percent end in death.
Have a nice day.
Posted by: Pam on August 17, 2002 11:14 AM...and in between is what we call LIFE.
Funny thing about life; you'll never get out of it alive.
You have a nice day, now.
Posted by: Agent M on August 17, 2002 11:32 AM"The other fifty percent (or marriages) end in death" - how, exactly, is this a bad thing? I'd like it if the odds were substantially higher.
What a great society this would be if people were happy with their choices and themselves. By itself this would be ideal - and just imagine the side benefits: less crime, less violence, less greed. Pleasantville without the stupid bits.
But I live in the real world, So I'll be happy if I just get a chance at flipping the marriage coin.
I am just amused that a "successful" marriage is an endeavor that ends with one of the participants dying. Anything less is considered a failure. There are not alot of other activities we can say that about.
Posted by: Pam on August 18, 2002 07:38 AMLate posting!
Sorry about this, I am new to the boards, but I just couldn't let this one go.
Point 1:
It's actually closer to something like two-thirds of all marriages that fail. However, you have to keep in mind an important consideration that skews the numbers:
People who divorce will likely have an opportunity to divorce again, and have a better than average chance of doing so. We all know people who have been married several times, which means they have been (hopefully) divorced almost as many times as they have been married.
On the other hand, people who have been married successfully do not often marry successfully a second time, for obvious reasons.
What this means is that a small percentage of people (about twenty percent, it turns out) are responsible for the sixty-six out of a hundred failed marriages. The remaining eighty percent of us enjoy lasting marriages.
We can all feel pretty good about that number, right?
Point 2:
Regarding open marriages, Agent M, you've made a gross presumption that undermines your argument.
While a great many marriages, open or otherwise, are plagued by wandering libidos, it would be unfair to characterize all open marriages as being based on a desertion of the first partner. A true open marriage involves all three, four or more partners.
Marriage the way you describe it sounds like a fortress into which you collectively wall yourselves for protection. A fortress that would crumble with the inclusion of a third party. Live your life as you wish, but don't assume we are all similarly embattled.
A good marriage means having a partner that you trust who will support you. It's a good feeling when you venture out into the world knowing that someone is watching your back. Now what would it be worth to you to have two people watching your back? And what would it be worth to you to know that when you are watching the back of one of your partners, that you are not doing so alone?
There is no fear or laziness there, rather an outwardly expanding circle of respect, love and responsibility. The same people who are capable of a truly great two person partnership are capable of a great three person partnership.
People whose mistrust and suspicion cannot withstand a three person partnership are going to have trouble keeping even a two person partnership together. This is why we so often see mothers, jobs and unique circumstances playing the role of "the other woman" in breakups of traditional marriages.
So, to bring the point around, it appears that, social stigmas aside, about eighty percent of us are capable of a multiple partner marriage.
Check out Robert A. Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love" to get a glimpse of what a successful multiple partner marriage can look like.
Your pal,
Fool
I think you're talking about polyamorous relationships, Foo'.
My rant is about Open Marriages. I tried to make the distinction between the two but I guess it failed.
However, if you're looking to a sci-fi author for a model of a successful relationship, might I remind you that in a fiction novel, everything can appear just hunky-dory... because it isn't real.
I have no problem with Polyamory. People who make it work make it work, no bones about that.
Open Marriages-- that's just laziness, fear and might I add a little greediness in there too-- because at the end of the day, there's no implied commitment there... just the Flavor Of The Week.
M
Posted by: Agent M on August 23, 2002 12:26 AMHmmm...a spicy topic to be sure. Whilst I do think there is a difference between polyamory and an "open" relationship, I just had to add this...
Rook said:
>Open marriage or closed, the rules are the same:
>Love, honor, and respect your partners.
Couldn't have said it better Rook...you nailed it right there. Without love, honor and respect...a relationship..."open" *OR* "closed" is doomed to fail.
Just my two cents...
A
Posted by: Agent A on August 23, 2002 03:47 PMAck, Heinlein... I enjoyed some of his stuff when I was young but when I got older I discovered his fantasies were very two-dimensional, very simplistic. Of _course_ his relationships worked in his books... because they almost never had to deal with any relationship _issues_.
While Heinlein's stories are a nice way to introduce someone to the idea of polyamory they are miles and miles away from any kind of real representation of it.
If Heinlein had actually included all the real work that goes into a _real_ relationship (mono _or_ poly) he'd have had an encyclopedia on his hands.
(of course maybe if he had, then his characters wouldn't have been so flat, wooden, and near-identical... I often had to read back a couple of paragraphs and carefully re-read the names to keep straight who was saying what. They all
"sounded" the same.)
Rant on, M. You took the words right out of my mouth!
-Seth (who found your page from Cargo's)
Posted by: Seth on September 23, 2002 03:51 PMAlright. I know you, Marci, Sean and I talked about this, but I figure I'll weigh in. An in the process I'm sure I'm inviting some vandalism of my character.
Why weigh in? Well, frankly most of the people in this debate could easily be cut off with a simple, "And, how would you know?" Well, I do know. Both sides, up close and personal. I know a few other do too.
There is a difference. And I have to agree Michael, but some of us have to learn somethings the hard way. The whole thing is a crock. And most proponents of the "other" side will never know that it isn't because they won't try being monogamous and find out.
Chsllenging yourself and those around you to live to a higher standard is never popular.
"Those who never change their opinions love themselves more than they love the truth."
Posted by: Brandi! on March 1, 2003 02:38 PMYour opening statement pissed me off. Sometimes people get married because it's amounted to only a legal agreement anyway. Sex has become such an irrelevant issue that I'm sure a lot of couples marry strictly in agreement that they are allowed to have sex with other people. I think some people are stuck in the midevil days or something.
Posted by: Summer on September 30, 2003 12:42 PMThat's great. Thanks for making that point.
...oh wait, you DIDN'T make a point, though.
I'm glad I pissed you off; it promotes discussion. What's too bad is that I'm not sure exactly what it was that DID piss you off.
As for sex becoming an irrelevant issue, I think every other human being on the planet disagrees with you. In fact, my whole post is ABOUT the fact that SEX seems MORE important than marriage, so why bother getting married if all you want is sex?
Posted by: Agent M on September 30, 2003 12:46 PMFunny, all the people who have never tried it making comments. It only makes sence though, that you would make comments against it if you never tried it because its not your thing.
I am in an open relationship. My relationship with my wife is just as hard as a closed in most aspects, but it is true, there is no preasure in the sexual area.
We understand that we are both people. People are attracted to other people. I dont see anything wrong with that, nor does my wife.
As far as, why bother getting married? Well, theres a laugh. You think we dont love each other? hehe, We actually got married and some 5 years later decided to open the relationship. We tried it, it worked, we have done it ever since.
I feel as though we will never get a divorce, never have the you cheated on me fight, never feel guilt over checking someone out who we find attractive. Does that make our relationship eaiser then a monogamous one? Yes. Is that a bad thing? I dont think so.
So, people who put it down either...
A. Never tried it and are jealous.
B. Never tried it because its not something they can or want to do.
That means its not for them. That has NOTHING to do with weather or not its the right thing for me.
J
Posted by: J on October 9, 2003 01:22 PMheh, people are often pissed off at people in open relationships because a HUGE percentage of people in the world have a sexless marrige. eg- under 10 times a year.
Posted by: J on October 9, 2003 01:24 PMRiiiiiiight.
The only reason ANYONE would EVER put it down is because they haven't tried it and don't like it.
Not at all because mostly, it's an irresponsible lack of commitment.
I say mostly because, hey, it obviously is working for you. Good for you. Congratulations.
That does not mean, however, that the concept is for everyone. Because from what I've seen, most people CAN'T, in fact, handle it. And those are the examples I've seen, which is what prompted this rant.
As for your second comment, J-- prove it. Sounds to me like you're arguing that your marriage is ALL ABOUT SEX, which of course is exactly what I'm ranting about-- and that monogamous marriages are not.
NOW who's got a skewed perspective?
M
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Posted by: slot on January 29, 2004 10:11 AMHi everyone, our names are Lloyd & Barbara, we have been very married for 23 years, to each other, many of our friends and relatives, almost 70% of them in fact have been divorced atleast once. That's getting to be the pretty typical average these years for the conventional christian based marriage. Many of the ones we have known got divorced due to atleast one of the partners in the marriage cheating with another person outside of the bounds of their marriage. Lets face it, it's hard to strive and never to be attracted to another person during your life time. After all sex is a natural thing, and being attracted to the opposite sex, or other sexual interests is always going to be on everyones mind, almost everyday of your life. For me and Barbara, it was and is threesomes. We are both straight, we are not bi sexuals, we are not into pain, or anything filthy or vulgar. We just like to have a threesome on ocassion where we have another man join in, and me and him both have sex with my wife at the same time. IF you haven't tried it, then you don't know what I'm talking about. We do this together , we are comfortable with it,and it will always be a part of our marriage. We have been doing it for 14 years, and we have now been married for 23 years. We don't stress out over finances, over sex, or over anything for that matter. We have found something that most people will never find in a what is considered a normal marriage or relationship. Am I going to tell you what it is, NO, I am not. Why ? Unless you are willing to grow as a couple and do whatever it takes to truly consumate your marriage you wouldn't understand it, you have to live and experience it. So people can go around being pissed off and actually just piss their life away as well as their marriage or they can break through the fiction of what is considered the traditional marriage that just suffocates and denies themselves the love and happiness that life has to offer. You get to live only once !! Be happy with your decisions and the way you live, you are the one that made it that way. Don't blame and slam others who have broke barriers of those traditional lifestyles that statistics show that most couples can't live up to. Traditional marriages has traditional results, with traditional divorces that are on the rise. How many centuries is going to take for people to realize that multiple partners in one relationship can be a better union? Why should a marriage be confined just between two people? I am a God fearing christian person, that believes that the relationship that me and my wife have is permissable even in the eyes of God. After all, look at all of the people in those olden days when concubines and consorts were allowed. Man put an end to multiple partners, not God, nor Christ. If you ask me we have to many religious fanantics and lawyers telling and leading the world in the wrong direction. Religion and Government defines how we live, so this is a one sentence explanation of why marriages fail, and the world stays at war. If those two elements did not exist, it would not be choas , it would be Utopia at its best. So in the confines of our home, we have created our own utopia, where we have a great marriage, happy children, and grandchildren, and one of the best and kinkiest sex lives that you can only dream of.Do we care that it pisses you or others off, hell no!! Why should I waste good emotions or time on what others think. We know what works for us, sounds like to me , you haven't found out what works for you, or maybe you know what you would like to do, and are just afraid to ask your life mate to join you.
Posted by: LLoyd Richardson on March 14, 2004 09:18 PMI am going to add my two cents. I am a happily married woman of eleven years.(Yes to the same wonderful man.) We have been together for a total of 21 years. We were in a monogamous marriage for seven years. I approached my husband about an open marriage. I was extremely bored in our bedroom and needed some spice; so, we talked extensively about it and decided to proceed. We don't see single people as we just aren't interested in singles. We swing with other couples. We have made some lifelong friendships with couples. Now, this is not for every couple and I'm not suggesting that all couples should try swinging because MOST couples are not secure enough in their marriage to TRUST their partner 100%. I trust my husband and I have no jealousy when he's with another woman; infact, I love to watch him. It arouses me to no end!! This was what I was missing in our marriage and my hubby is very happy I suggested swinging. Our marriage has been stronge and our sexlife...oh my!! It's never been better. We are both sexually satisfied. I would like to know if you can say the same?
Posted by: wouldn't_u_like_2_know on June 5, 2004 02:03 AMYeah, these are typical arguments from "the other side of the fence."
I'm very happy in my sex life. My monogamous, one-partner, solid-foundation sex life.
I don't begrudge polyamourous couples their lifestlyes; rather the point of my rant is those that claim that as their lifestyle as a way of circumnavigating the real issues with their relationships.
If you're happily married and both of you arrive at a mature, stable decision to swing, great for you-- safe, sane and consensual is always the golden rule, isn't it?
There's no need to be defensive unless you feel like one of the couple who in fact, is covering a deficiency in your own relationship by bringing in other people to distract you from it.
THAT's what my problem is with "open marriages." Because if it's "open," why bother getting married? What's the point?
If you're polyamourous, that's different. Go back and read my rant again, "wouldn't_u" and Lloyd, and see what I'm really saying.
Unless of course my words threaten you. Which would mean I'm hitting a little too close to home in my perceptions of your relationships, wouldn't it.
M
Posted by: Agent M on June 5, 2004 03:29 PMYou aren't hitting close to home at all. I'm not the one who was badgering other peoples lifestyles. We have choices in our lives and if you choose to be monogamous then more power to you. My point was to "enlighten" you a bit about alternative lifestyles because you have NEVER been in the lifestyle. It's always easier to judge people and their actions while you are on the outside looking in. You have NO idea what takes place in "open" marriages because you have NEVER been in one. Maybe you are curious?? OR Maybe a bit envious?? I'm not sure which one it is..
Posted by: wouldn't_u_like_2_know on June 6, 2004 12:45 AMI have one more thing to add..typical woman eh??
You are defining "open and polyamory" as two seperate lifestyles..you are incorrect. They are interchangable. I consider my marriage as being "open". My husband can have sex with anyone he chooses and I can do the same.
I did go through and read all of your postings. Confusing as they are and I feel you need to "lighten" up a bit on the lifestyles. I read your profile and I see you are married and have a child..congratulations.
Being male as you are, I'm sure you have fantasies. Have you ever shared or acted these fantasies out with your wife? Is your wife "open-minded" to these fantasies of yours? Does she meet all your "sexual" needs fully? If you answer, honestly, YES. I think you are full of shi* and you are lying to yourself and to your wife. Not ONE person can meet ANYONE'S needs 100%. That's why most marriages fail. One spouse strays because his/hers needs are NOT being met. I suggest you go online to these chatrooms. Most are filled with married men looking to cheat on their spouse. You are saying to people who are in an "OPEN" marriage are an "INSULT TO THE INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE." I feel you should rethink your thoughts; afterall, your so called "closed" marriages FAIL more than they succeed...You even admited it yourself.
Open marriages do take work. We are not lazy and I take offense to that. You state that open marriages have no commitment..you are wrong. We have the same commitments all other marriages have with one exception..WE ARE HONEST with eachother. That's where "open" vs "closed" marriages differ. I wonder how HONEST your marriage is??? You may never know what your wife is doing or thinking...because you don't know your wife as well as you think you do.
Posted by: wouldn't_u_like_2_know on June 6, 2004 02:04 AMOnce again, typical. Because I'm not in the lifestyle, I have to therefore be curious or envious. That's so very sad that you would think that.
Secondly, let me quote a bit of your insanity:
"Does she meet all your "sexual" needs fully? If you answer, honestly, YES. I think you are full of shi* and you are lying to yourself and to your wife. Not ONE person can meet ANYONE'S needs 100%. That's why most marriages fail."
So anyone who is in a monogamous marriage who claims that their spouse fully meets their sexual needs is lying to themselves? And worse-- that THAT is the reason most marriages fail?
I see I'm arguing with someone who lacks perspective. Or, indeed, intelligence. Your sexualcentric viewpoint doesn't allow for any debate, nor does your disrespect for those of us who chose to do a little extra work on our relationships. You even refer to monogamous marriage as dishonest.
This argument is over; I don't kick puppies and I won't torment someone who doesn't possess a modicum of comprehension outside their own purview.
Posted by: Agent M on June 6, 2004 10:11 AMU might think Im young for this.. But im 21 years old.. My husband is 39 years old... We have been married for 3 years now with 1 child between us... My husband isnt into having alot of sex.. We only have it maybe once a month.. I have a high sex drive so we are lookin into an open marriage.. I do think that if ur not getting the needs met at home ur going else where... I would rather be in an open marriage than do it behind my husbands back... At least he would know about it... Yes I think bout what if he finds someone else that he likes or loves.. But willing to give that a chance..
My belief is... if u do it behind their back its CHEATING...
if they know bout it than its not.. Just like my thinkin is.. if u sleep with someone of the same sex than its not cheating.. I know thats goin to tick someone off.. But I really dont give a sh*t!